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Talk:Imprisoning War
Timeline split Wasn't the past split (in which hyrule was not detstroyed) the timeline in which the wind waker's events happend , because it says he disapeared to fight in another land (Termina). So shouldnt it be written theother way round at the bottem of this page mongooseman556 (talk) 14:03, 26 October 2007 (UTC) Who was the Hylian Knight who wasn't killed in the Imprisoning War and where can you find him? Hylian Knight Who was the Hylian Knight who survived, and where does he live once you pull the sword out? Timeline Please changed all the stuff about it being Ocarina of Time because you don't know that for sure and basically the article just summarizes the later half of Ocarina. Plus, it's destroying my timeline. I'm confused now. What game did they actually explicitly say "Imprisoning War" in? Fused Shadow 17:12, 4 February 2008 (UTC) Thanks. Fused Shadow 02:53, 5 February 2008 (UTC) Location of the Temple of Time The maps of Hyrule in TP and OOT suggest that Hyrule Castle Town was rebuilt elsewhere, as it is dead-center in Hyrule in TP while off-center to the north in OOT. We also know that Ganondorf attacked the castle and the town, which likely did extensive damage. When Link duels the Skull Kid in TP, he is standing in the middle of what appears to have once been a square, one that looks strikingly similar to the square of the old Hyrule Castle Town of OOT. And on the other side of the tunnel the Skull Kid opens is the Temple of Time, just as it had been laid out in OOT (the temple was a short distance off the town square). The evidence seems to point to the castle and town being rebuilt in the center of Hyrule, leaving the Temple of Time and the remains of the old Castle Town to fall into ruin where they sat as the Faron Woods grew up around it. This makes more logical sense also, as it would be nigh impossible to uproot an entire temple and the remains of the town around it to relocate it in a forest. It just doesn't make sense and doesn't seem practical. Hero of Time 87 21:07, 5 March 2008 (UTC) Ah, but you're forgetting A LOT of other things, such as the new locations on the maps and the relocations involved therein. You are forgetting that Ganondorf still attacked Hyrule Castle Town and likely did a lot of damage before he was subdued. You are forgetting that Hyrule Castle Town is in a COMPLETELY different part of Hyrule Field in TP. Go check it out, it's true. They are NOT in the same place. The Temple of Time's presence is proof of that. And be realistic: they are not going to uproot the Temple of Time and move it to a forest where no one goes. It's not logical. It's far more supported that the castle and the town were rebuilt in the middle of Hyrule Field after Ganondorf's attack. The presence of the remains of the town square near the Temple of Time's remains is proof of that. That is the most likely scenario. They merely modeled the new Hyrule Castle Town after the original, explaining why it looks similar to its predecessor. Hero of Time 87 03:08, 6 March 2008 (UTC) That still doesn't make sense, b/c Ganondorf was captured and banished. There would have been no reason to move it, and it's not logical to move it. I maintain that they are NOT the same castle and town b/c they are in a completely different place, and the evidence is there that there was once a square of some kind outside the ruins of the Temple of Time. The old Castle Town was there, and it can be seen when Link battles the Skull Kid. And yes, the Lost Woods most likely expanded in a century, common sense should tell you that. You keep forgetting we're talking a century later, and in Hyrule, a land of magic. I maintain that Hyrule Castle Town was rebuilt elsewhere due to the maps of Hyrule and the presence of the old Castle Town square during the Skull Kid battle.Hero of Time 87 02:11, 7 March 2008 (UTC) I don't see any reason to continue the "argument" because the evidence supports the ruins being the old Hyrule Castle Town, not to mention the new Castle Town's location at the center of Hyrule Field. And on a side note, Kokiri Forest was a "forbidden forest," meaning that it wasn't part of Hyrule proper. While still considered part of the land of Hyrule, like Ordon Village, it wasn't officially considered part of the main kingdom, merely an annex. So your statement about the two not being the same place is null and voided I'm afraid there. Link's house is on the outskirts b/c the Kokiri Forest's geography, like the rest of Hyrule, changed drastically in that 100 years following the Imprisoning War. The Deku Tree's remains ought to be obvious: the new Forest Temple. The tree is the right size, close to Ordona Province, and bears the symbol of the Kokiri on its doors exactly like the interior of the Deku Tree. I'm afraid that is incorrect about Hyrule Castle's ruins being the Skull Kid arena, b/c Hyrule Castle was a distance from the Temple of Time, and it looks to have been a square of some kind. The evidence is that it was Hyrule Castle Town (from both OOT and TP), and you forget that Ganondorf pursued Zelda on horseback and thus didn't pay much attention to the town b/c he was after her. When he attacked again in the past, she was likely there with her father when Ganondorf was captured, thus meaning that he did more damage to the town b/c she was still there in the castle. He likely focused ALL his attention on Hyrule Castle and Hyrule Castle Town the second time around because Zelda (along with the Ocarina of Time) was still inside Hyrule Castle, where her father and his soldiers were ready and waiting when Ganondorf attacked thanks to Link and Zelda's warning. Also, the reason the ruins were much taller is b/c of the redesign of Hyrule in TP. Look at the Temple of Time. It's MUCH more elaborate in TP as opposed to how it looked in OOT (much plainer in OOT). The Master Sword is much more elaborate in TP too. The whole land was redesigned, showing similarities to OOT while making them much more detailed and elaborate. So the fact that the walls were much higher is irrelevant really b/c that's just reflected in the redesign of Hyrule in TP. So think about what you're suggesting through carefully before you try to make the assumptions. Hero of Time 87 20:38, 7 March 2008 (UTC) Yes, it's obvious, but what is obvious to me is that the version about the temple itself being moved makes no logical sense at all, and fails to explain the presence of the town square we see during the Skull Kid's battle with Link. The most likel scenario needs to be emphasized, that being that the castle and the town were rebuilt elsewhere due to the several indicators that that is indeed what happened. Hero of Time 87 02:30, 8 March 2008 (UTC) According to Miyamoto, the games go together somehow, so Hyrule likely changed drastically in that century. When hard facts aren't present, you have to use logic and go with the most likely scenario until something concrete finally emerges. Hero of Time 87 04:58, 8 March 2008 (UTC) Well I said it earlier, and I'll say it agian: "I think the best solution to the dispute is to say that it very possible that the ruins are Hyrule Castle Town, and agree that the locations of things have been (and probably will continue to be) changed for asthetic reasons." I think that we can all have our theories (which are very fun and interesting to read and compare), but there's no definitive way that we can prove each other wrong unless Nintendo has a word in the matter. M. H. Avril 05:46, 8 March 2008 (UTC) And I've said it before as well: If you have an encyclopedia about information concerning the games and there is missing information, the possibility with the most evidence to support it and makes the most logical sense should be the one emphasized most. Subsequent ones that have less evidence to support it belong in a "Theory" section. For encyclopedia purposes however, the possibility with the most evidence to support it is that Hyrule Castle Town was rebuilt elsewhere, as is seen just by looking at a map of Hyrule in TP. And once more, you forget that Hyrule is a land of magic, one that is not bound by all the laws that govern our world. It may be entirely possible that the world could be reshaped in merely a century if Hyrule's geologic activity is more active than our own. As I said before, a good example of that is Narnia, where the land changed drastically just one book after TLWW. I see no reason why the landscapes could not change just as drastically in this case. And obviously they have according to the maps. And yes, I can see things shifting just as they do in our world. Death Mountain is an active volcano and is constantly changing is shape, and the geologic activity of Hyrule has the power to shift the mountain in several ways. Hyrule is not our world, and thus is not completely bound by our world's laws. The naysayers have yet to produce a satisfactory answer as to why it couldn't happen in Hyrule, where so far the basic lesson is that anything is possible. Hero of Time 87 20:52, 8 March 2008 (UTC) Incorrect, b/c geology works that way, in case you hadn't noticed. Not to mention that Death Mountain IS AN ACTIVE VOLCANO. And no, it makes no sense to move the Temple of Time if Ganondorf was gone from Hyrule. There was no reason whatsoever to do that. And you're discounting the fact that Ganondorf attacked the castle and the town. And I don't see anyone "outnumbering" anyone, Mr. Naysayer (Fused Shadow). I see a bunch of people weighing in on what is more likely and what is not. It makes no logical sense to uproot an entire temple just to hide it away from the world if the very person that was out to enter the Sacred Realm was thrown into the Twilight Realm already. You make no sense in that regard. And incorrect once again, they warned her father together, and he was tipped off about the attack. He refused to take action against Ganondorf the first time because there was no wrongdoing yet. And Zelda herself tried to convince her father of Ganondorf's intentions, and still wouldn't do anything against him. They were merely on alert if something should happen, so they were prepared when Ganondorf did attack the second time. And obviously the castle is completely different from the way it appeared in OOT. The one in OOT had no central tower, and it certainly was not in the middle of Hyrule Field. And your logic concerning Death Mountain is flawed because it's natural for mountain ranges to form and shift over time, anyone with an average knowledge of geology could tell you that. The fact is that there is no logcial reason to move the Temple of Time, but there is logical reason to rebuild the town and the castle somewhere else if it was damaged in an attack we knew was coming at the end of OOT. And also, none of those that have spoken have yet explained why there appears to be a square of some kind near the ruins of the Temple of Time that very much resembles that of Hyrule Castle Town. There was more than just the Temple of Time's ruins there in the Sacred Grove. And we know from OOT that the town square was right near the Temple of Time and closely resembled the place upon which Link battled the Skull Kid in TP. There is more evidence that the castle and the town were rebuilt elsewhere, and I don't think anyone can dispute that when there's visual evidence to support it. There is no evidence to support the theory that the temple was moved, nor does it make logical sense. Also, trying to equate something that has no evidence to support it with something that actually does have evidence to support it borders on the verge of vandalism. Yes, it is possible the temple was moved, but not nearly as likely given the information and facts that are present. Hero of Time 87 00:10, 9 March 2008 (UTC) 1) Trying to make something of substance that has evidence to support it equivalent to something that has no substantial evidence to support it IS vandalism. 2) No, I do not. The Temple of Time had been there that long amongst the people, I doubt they would move it merely out of the fear of another attack if there appeared to be no other threats to it. What's more, no one (save the Kokiri) could navigate the Lost Woods without a lot of trouble, making it all the more unlikely the Temple was taken away piece-by-piece through a section of forest that no one can successfully navigate without getting lost along the way. 3) You again fail to realize that Hyrule is not our world. It's geology is not likely set at the same pace as ours. What takes thousands of years to happen here may only take a few decades to occur in the land of Hyrule, a land of magic. And no, I doubt they would mention it b/c it is trivial in the land of Hyrule. Did we learn of geographical changes in OOT? No. And it's not likely to be specifically pointed out in this instance either. 4) It looks nothing like the Forest Temple, and has the appearance of a square of some kind. One can tell that at one time it was inhabited by Hylians just looking at its architecture and comparing it to that of Hyrule Castle Town, which matches it. 5) My theories have evidence (something upon which to stand), while yours do not seem to have anything consequential to stand on. Until I see evidence that seems to support yours, I dismiss it until I see something that is substantial and consequential. That is only being logical. I go with what is the most likely, and moving the Temple of Time is not the most likely scenario given the evidence and precedent. Also, Oath to Order, you also fail to realize those things as well, like the fact that Death Mountain is not just a mountain, it is a VOLCANO. Volcanoes form mountain ranges. Geologic activity can cause massive shifts in landscapes. And again, you all make the mistake of thinking that Hyrule's natural laws are identical to our own. It's obvious that they don't always work the same way. Like I said, Narnia is a prime example of how different worlds can have different rates of change and different laws governing them, espeically a world of magic. And when you think about it, Death Mountain really didn't move that much at all, it expanded though, as volcanoes do. And no, it makes no sense for a king to remove a temple that has been there for ages to some place that no one (not even his soldiers) could likely navigate without aid. If the King wouldn't do anything against Ganondorf with Zelda warning him, what makes you think Link's testimony is going to change that without more concrete evidence? He likely alerted his guard and the sages in the event that Link and Zelda were right since Link was supporting Zelda's prophetic dream. But it is known that Ganondorf was aiming to attack the castle, and likely still did, only this time with an alerted Hylian army. Also, many of you fail to remember that Impa herself said that Ganondorf's target in the attack was the OCARINA OF TIME, which Zelda possessed, not the Temple of Time. His focus was on getting the Ocarina. One other thing: Ganondorf wasn't sealed in the Sacred Realm in the child timeline (at that point in it anyway), Oath to Order. That was in the other branch of Hyrule's history. Ganondorf was thrown into the Twilight Realm in the child timeline, not the Dark World. Not at first, anyways. It is debateable how he gets from supposedly dying in Twilight Princess to being in the Sacred Realm in A Link to the Past, but at that point at least, Ganondorf was not sealed within the Temple of Time as you suggest. His presence in ALttP suggests that he survived death in TP somehow. If I could figure out what really happened to Ganondorf in Twilight Princess and figure out how he got sealed in the Dark World in the child timeline, I think I'd finally have the series continuity figured out though. I've long searched for an answer to that question, but no one seems to know, unless any of you can answer that for me? It would answer a lot of my remaining questions about the series if I knew the answer to that question. Hero of Time 87 01:12, 9 March 2008 (UTC) On the contrary, mhavril39 and Fused Shadow, it doesn't state that he didn't actually attack Hyrule Castle. It states that they didn't want him to do anything more outrageous. Now why would they be afraid that he'd do anything outrageous? Because he attacked the castle and made an attempt on the lives of the Hyrulean Royal Family. So that reasoning of yours is flawed, because it never states that he didn't attack the castle. This does not mean that he never attacked the castle, because he was on the verge of attacking the castle at the end of OOT, where Zelda and Link were once again spying on him through the window on the eve of his attack on the castle to claim the Ocarina of Time. So that does nothing to advance your theory about the temple being moved, unfortunately. Ganondorf obviously did something "outrageous" in order to make the King and the Sages want to execute him, and that outrageous act was his attack on Hyrule Castle. And I have a piece of incontestable proof that '''HE DID ATTACK HYRULE CASTLE!' The Ancient Sages state in Twilight Princess that he invaded Hyrule prior to his capture and even show him on his steed during the attack upon completion of the Arbiter's Grounds. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVYggDnaJgY Bearing that in mind, that makes your implication null and void because it is stated that he did indeed invade Hyrule before his capture and botched execution. Aonuma's statement meant that after he was captured, he was deemed too dangerous to be allowed to live following the attack on Hyrule Castle. I maintain there was no reason to move the Temple of Time because that was not Ganondorf's target in the attack, the Ocarina of Time was, meaning that the full brunt of his attack would focus on Hyrule Castle and Hyrule Castle Town. This would imply that both took heavy damage in the attack and were rebuilt in a more central location in Hyrule Field following Ganondorf's failed attack. This would account for the remains of the old Castle Town appearing near the Temple of Time's ruins as well as the radically different structure of Hyrule Castle from its predecessor (which had no central tower) as well as the new location of the castle and town. On a side note, this explains what happened to the Gerudo and why they do not appear in Twilight Princess (outside of one of their possible descendants, Telma) and why the Spirit Temple (their most cherished place of worship) became the main Hyrulean Prison, the Arbiter's Grounds: the Gerudo (led into battle by their King, Ganondorf, as stated by the Sages) were most likely almost entirely wiped out during this failed invasion thanks to the Hero of Time's warning, and the spoils of war included their own temple which would serve as the holding place for all enemies of the Royal Family of Hyrule. Hero of Time 87 05:00, 9 March 2008 (UTC)